Feb 06, 2007, 01:05 AM // 01:05
|
#1
|
|
Jungle Guide
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Guild: Black Rose Gaming [BR]
|
The DEFINITIVE Listing of Needed ASSASSIN Skill Changes
I'd like to think that ANET staff members read my "skills that need to be improved" threads from months ago because some of the new changes in the past several updates were exactly what I had suggested (or at least in part). Or maybe it's just coincidence. Either way, I'm at it again so I hope they are indeed reading.
Blanket statement for this thread -- ALL SHADOWSTEP ABILITIES SHOULD DISABLE NON-ASSASSIN ATTACK SKILLS FOR 2 SECONDS AND EMPTY THE ADRENALINE POOL.
 CRITICAL STRIKES:
Assassin's Remedy - Change to a skill with automatic activation and have it activate when ANY Assassin skill is used, not just an attack skill.
Why? - Because now it’s actually useful, while at the same time not making Mending Touch inferior.
Critical Defenses - Change casting time to 1/4 of a second.
Why? - It’s too much of a time waster to have to cast it.
Critical Eye - Dramatically increase the duration (something like 5 seconds base plus and extra 10 seconds per rank in critical strikes).
Why? - Because it's currently a waste of a skillslot. The +1 energy bonus per critical is lessened when you consider that 5 energy needs to be spent every 30 seconds to reapply the skill.
Dark Apostasy - Change activation time to 1/4 of a second.
Why? - Because standing there casting a spell for 2 seconds as an Assassin is way too obvious .
Deadly Haste - Change to a skill with automatic activation.
Why? - Because you could make some great builds with this skill but at the moment it's too risky to really be worth it.
Falling Spider - Set activation time as 1 second.
Why? - Needs just a little push to keep it competitive.
Fox's Promise - Change to a skill with automatic activation, decrease the energy cost to 5, and change the duration to 3 + (Attribute Rank * 2).
Why? - Because otherwise Expose Defenses really negates the purpose of spending your ELITE slot on this skill.
Locust's Fury - Decrease to 5 energy and change to a skill with automatic activation. All other current updates are perfect.
Why? - Because this is similar to a Instant-Attack-Speed ability (though not nearly as good because it doesn't help your attack chains) and I don't recall frenzy/flurry/tiger's stance being easily removable. It's also a waste of time to be casting this when you need to be attacking and 10 energy is too unwieldy for the effect that it gives.
Malicious Strike - Change to an Offhand Attack that does not require a Lead Attack for it to activate and increase recharge time to 12 seconds.
Why? - Because the effect is currently almost worthless. As an offhand attack with no requirement, however, it could be interesting.
Palm Strike - Decrease to 5 energy and an 8 second recharge.
Why? - Because it's an Elite and deserves to be better than other Offhand attacks that are non-Elite.
Sleeping Wound - Decrease to a 1/4 second cast and 5 second recharge. Also change the duration to 30 seconds.
Why? - Because the effect isn't that amazing for an Elite but if spammable the skill could actually become useful for condition pressure builds.
Sharpen Daggers - Keep the 2 second activation but change to a skill, decrease recharge to 10 seconds, dramatically increase the duration (5 seconds base plus an extra 10 seconds per rank), and slightly increase the bleeding duration that is caused (3 + Attribute Rank).
Why? - Because you shouldn't have to waste time constantly re-applying a skill with an effect that's this small and if interrupted you can at least go for it again in a shorter amount of time. The new effective is also really stupid. Put it back to where it caused bleeding with each Critical Hit.
Unsuspecting Strike - Make it unblockable/unevadable.
Why? - Cause it's a leet sneak attack. They don't know it's coming (in RPG terms), so they shouldn't be able to block/evade. A 10 energy Lead Attack better be worth it.
Way of the Assassin - Remove the "while enchanted" conditionality and add a 25% IAS component.
Why? - Because the current effect is hardly worthy of this skill being an ELITE.
DAGGER MASTERY
Desperate Strike - Decrease the recharge to 4 seconds, change the activation time to half a second, and set the conditionality to "less than 80% health".
Why? - The Mantra is “Lead Attacks need to be worth it, Lead attacks need to be worth it...”
Disrupting Stab - Change to simply a "Melee Attack" instead of a Lead Atack and have it disable all skills, not just spells.
Why? - Because it makes little sense to use this as a Lead attack when you need to save it to interrupt something and it should be able to disable signets and such just as the Warrior equivilent Disrupting Chop does.
Exhausting Assault - Should be able to follow a Lead or Offhand Attack.
Why? - The final buff to Mobius Strike builds. Might need a slightly longer recharge.
Flashing Blades - Decrease to 5 energy and keep the recharge at 20 seconds. All other current updates are perfect.
Why? - Still too much of an energy sink.
Fox Fangs - Decrease recharge to 4 seconds.
Why? - It’s obsolete otherwise.
Golden Fox Strike - Decrease the recharge to 4 seconds.
Why? - I’ve come to the conclusion that most every Lead Attack needs to be on a 4 second recharge. That’s what Lead/Offhand/Dual chains need to be effective when compared to attack chains that bypass Lead attacks.
Golden Skull Strike - Reduce to 5 energy and add a non-conditional damage bonus of 5 + (Attribute Rank * 2).
Why? - To balance out with Temple Strike.
Golden Lotus Strike - Decrease recharge to 4 seconds.
Why? - Because the benefit here is the energy gain and it's just totally worthless with the current recharge.
Golden Phoenix Strike - Decrease to 5 energy.
Why? - Because 10 energy is a lot for something that's conditional and doesn't even do a ton of extra damage. Using a spammable hex with Black Spider Strike and Black Lotus Strike is almost always going to be better if this remains at 10 energy.
Jagged Strike - Add a small damage bonus (base of 5 + your rank in dagger mastery).
Why? - Again, it’s just not good enough currently. Lead Attacks need to be effective not just “oh, that’s cute”.
Jungle Strike - Decrease to a 5 second recharge.
Why? - To fit in with new recharges of Black Mantis Thrust and Leaping Mantis Sting, making these attack chains worthwhile.
Leaping Mantis Sting - Decrease recharge time to 6 seconds and decrease activation time to half a second.
Why? - Becuase lead attacks need to be worth taking, otherwise Offhand + Dual + Offhand + Dual will almost always be the favored attack chain. The effect here is conditional on factors outside of what you can do (ie. being enchanted or hexing the foe), so it deserves to be spammed.
Repeating Strike - Should be able to follow any Lead or Offhand melee attack. Also cause it to do +5 damage for each time it is used beyond the first in the space of 5 seconds (maximum bonus of +15).
Why? - Because it just isn't worth the energy and effort right now. It should be able to be used as the offhand attack in a normal Lead + Offhand + Dual attack chain and it should synergize a bit more with builds that give you the energy to use it many times.
Temple Strike - Decrease to 10 energy and interrupt any action, not just spells, when used.
Why? - Because no Assassin skill should cost more than 10 energy. 15 energy is a big investment for an ELITE with such a long recharge. See posts below for more detailed reasoning.
DEADLY ARTS - This is currently without a doubt the weakest skill line of any class (that was what I originally wrote many months ago with the first edition of this thread...it is getting better!).
Assassin's Promise - Reduce to a 20 second recharge and a 1/4 second cast and slightly increase the duration (equal to the energy gain of the spell).
Why? - Because it's currently only playble in SBRi group builds and maybe now an actual Assassin can give the spell a use.
Dark Prison - Reduce to a 30 second recharge and increase hex duration (exact same numbers as Shadow Prison).
Why? - Because it's too sporadic at the moment to be of much use, other than a teleport spike build with Deadly Pardox and Shroud of Silence in which you have to pump your Deadly Arts really high to make it work and have no self-defense options.
Deadly Paradox - Don't let it affect Forms.
Why? - To make the new Shadow Form spell un-abusable.
Enduring Toxin - Decrease to a 5 second recharge.
Why? - Because it's sub-par unless it can be kept up at all times.
Entangling Asp - Should be able to follow any dagger attack or melee Assassin skill.
Why? - Because it's currently way too limited. This needs to be available at any time you've engaged your opponent.
Expunge Enchantments - Decrease to a 20 second recharge.
Why? - Because 30 seconds is too long of a time to make it worth taking.
Lift Enchantment - For some reason this is a touch-range skill...change it to full range.
Why? - To make it more useful; it's pretty limited already.
Iron Palm - Reduce the recharge to 15 seconds, make the knockdown unconditional, and increase the damage (equal to PALM STRIKE) but make it conditional on the foe suffering from a hex or a condition.
Why? - Because it's not worth 10 energy currently. It does very little damage, is not readily usable, and the main effect is conditional.
Mantis Touch - Should be able to follow any dagger attack or melee assassin skill.
Why? - Because it's too conditional right now.
Mark of Death - Increase the duration (5 + rank in attribute) and decrease recharge to 15 seconds.
Why? - Because now it might be useful outside of SBRi to add pressure.
Mark of Insecurity - Decrease casting time to a 1/4 second and additionally cause it to drop the opponent's Armor Level by -10.
Why? - Not really worth taking over other Elite abilities with the current effect.
Scorpion Wire - Reduce to a 15 second recharge.
Why? - 30 seconds is way too long for this conditional effect.
Shadow Prison - Decrease recharge to 15 seconds.
Why? - IAS stances are becoming MUCH less usable for Assassins along with this skill. Drop the recharge to move the skill more towards being a general snare.
Shameful Fear - Reduce to 1/4 second cast, do not cause the spell to increase your target's movement speed, and increase the damage dealt by 5 points.
Why? - Because if your opponent is running away it doesn't do too much good to stand there casting this for 2 seconds, especially when this just makes them get away faster. The spell needs to quickly force your opponent into a predicament...they either stand there and get hit by your melee or they run away and take damage.
Shroud of Silence - Cause it to effect shouts/chants.
Why? - Totally fits in with the flavor of the skill.
Signet of Shadows - Reduce recharge to 15 seconds.
Why? - Why not? Signet of Toxic Shock is a 15 second recharge.
Siphon Strength - Reduce the bonus critical chance to 25% but allow it to affect all attacks, not just the ones made on the hexed target. Also decrease to 10 energy and set as a half-range spell.
Why? - Because it's usefulness is lessened when you are forced to attack the physical damage dealers you're trying to debuff. It's currently like the equivilent of a Mesmer whose Spirit of Failure energy bonus would only take effect if they were actively attacking or casting on that target. Not good.
Way of the Empty Palm - Decrease to a 15 second recharge.
Why? - Because it's already of limited usage and for the builds you'd want to use it with the spell need to be kept up more consistently.
SHADOW ARTS
Beguiling Haze - Reduce to 10 energy. All other current updates are perfect.
Why? - The dazed duration is pretty short; 10 energy is fine for this skill.
Blinding Powder - Should be able to follow any dagger attack or melee Assassin skill. Also change this to a half-range skill, cause it to affect only one target, and reduce the recharge to 15 seconds.
Why? - Well first of all it makes no sense why this isn't a half-range skill (pretty damn hard to throw powder and make it go very far) and secondly it needs to be reliable. Being required to make a successful offhand attack hampers its usefulness currently, especially since it is pretty much THE only Assassin ability that makes Unseen Fury worth using.
Death's Charge - Reduce to 30 second recharge.
Why? - Because 45 seconds for shadowsteps is too long. These quick mobility abilities actually need to be constant enough for an Assassin to pressure with them.
Death's Retreat - Reduce to a 15 second recharge.
Why? - Because otherwise Return is almost always going to be superior.
Heart of Shadow - Decrease to 10 second recharge. All other current updates are perfect.
Why? - Because it's not constant enough healing right now to worth being used.
Mirrored Stance - If the opponent is already in a stance when this is cast on them, make it so that you automatically enter into that stance. Additionally reduce the recharge to 2 seconds.
Why? - Because it's way too conditional at the moment to be of use.
Shadow Form - Remove the "you lose X amount of health when this skill ends" component, change it to a skill with a 10 second recharge that also changes the form of your character, set the duration at 10 + (Attribute Rank * 2), and cause the skill to become disabled for 60 seconds when used. Also make it so that traps are not sprung by the character when in this form.
Why - The skill in its current form is either useless or gimmicky with things such as Deadly Paradox and Arcane Mimicry + Echo. With this change it would temporarily give the Assassin near-invulnerability without the drawback of massive health loss when it ends and not be abusable by other skills in any way. Worthy of being an Elite but not problem causing.
Shadow of Haste - Increase the duration by 5 seconds for every critical hit while in the stance. All other updates are perfect.
Why? - Makes the skill useful for melee Assassins while keeping it balanced for other builds.
Shadow Refuge - Decrease casting time to a 1/4 second.
Why? - Casts too slow for PvP these days.
Shadow Shroud - Decrease to a 15 second recharge.
Why? - Because the duration is so short; needs to be usable more often.
Shadowy Burden - Increase speed debuff to 33%, remove the "while foe has no other hexes" condition for the armor debuff, and very slightly increase duration to 3 + Attribute Rank. All other current updates are perfect.
Why? - Needs to be worth 10 energy.
Shroud of Distress - Reduce the recharge to 30 seconds and change duration to 15 + (Attribute rank * 4).
Why? - 45 second recharge makes it a bit too prone to removal. The minimum duration is also lowered so that a Monk can’t just 0-spec and constantly maintain the spell.
Unseen Fury - Reduce to a 20 second recharge and additionally make it so that you are unaffected by blindness while attacking a blinded foe.
Why? - Because for this kind of build to be viable, the skill needs to be up constantly and truly allow you to cut through anti-melee effects.
Viper's Defense - Remove the teleportation component, increase to a 15 second recharge, and cause it to knock down and poison the next person who damages you with a melee attack (50% failure on the knockdown component with Shadow Arts under 4).
Why? - Because the skill is horrible right now; it doesn't give you much defense at all. With this change it would definitely give you concrete protection while still adding a bit of pressure from the poison as well.
Way of Perfection - Reduce to 1/4 second cast and 10 second recharge.
Why? - Because it needs to be reliable if you're going to depend on it for healing.
Way of the Fox - Decrease to a 30 second recharge.
Why? - Needs to be available more often to be really useful as a spiking aid. Plus, Dervish get a skill that does the exact same thing with a 30 second recharge.
Way of the Lotus - Reduce to a 10 second recharge.
Why? - Too inconsistent at the moment to be used for energy management.
NO ATTRIBUTE
Aura of Displacement - Decrease energy cost to 5.
Why? - Uses up too much energy to be worth the Elite status.
Mark of Instability - Decrease energy cost to 5.
Why? - Because there are better ways to spend your 10 energy if it remains as such.
Recall - Decrease to 10 energy.
Why? - Keeping in line with the "no Assassin ability should cost more than 10 energy" mantra. The effect here is good but 15 energy (plus you're losing energy to maintain...) is questionable.
Shadow Meld - Decrease to 5 energy and a 15 second recharge.
Why? - Because at 10 energy and a 20 second recharge, there's really not much point in spending your Elite slot on it.
Signet of Twilight - Reduce activation time to 1 second.
Why? - Conditional abilities need to be usable quickly during the window of opportunity.
Spirit Walk - Reduce to a 4 second recharge.
Why? - Because it's already very specific but at least now you can use it with Consume Soul on the same recharge timer for hunting down spirits in HA.
Swap - I think this should be an Elite, cost 10 energy, have a 60 second recharge, and be usable on ANY target. One thing the game currently lacks are spells/skills that physically move your opponent in some way.
Why - “Summoning” abilities need to be carefully balanced but they are a mechanic that could possibly be very exciting. Please think about it ANET.
Wastrel’s Collapse - If the opponent uses a skill during it's duration, have the hex end prematurely and cause that skill to be disabled for an additional 12 seconds.
Why? - It's too easy to completely avoid the main effect of the skill at the moment.
-----------------------
Discuss!
Last edited by Zuranthium; Apr 13, 2007 at 10:03 PM // 22:03..
|
|
|
|
Feb 06, 2007, 03:25 AM // 03:25
|
#2
|
|
Jungle Guide
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Sitting upon Kerrigan's Throne.
Guild: Live For The Swarm [ZERG]
Profession: Me/N
|
I agree with a few of these changes, but Temple Strike should be left alone. Why? Because the skill is devastating in it's current state. It disables all kinds of attackers, so it needs to have a high energy-cost+recharge.
EDIT: More thoughts:
your Swap suggestion would be very fun. Imagine... swapping places with an enemy monk, right as they're healing, moving them out of range. Hillarity would ensue!
Last edited by Priest Of Sin; Feb 06, 2007 at 03:38 AM // 03:38..
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 06, 2007, 05:56 AM // 05:56
|
#3
|
|
Frost Gate Guardian
|
LOL! I love your swap idea! Its kind of like... dare i say.. naruto-.-
seriously though its awesome! especially if you could tele a monster into your group and safely warp back to help them, oh it would do wonders for pvp and pve!
I think personally that sharpen daggers should be restored to its original state, and i Agree with your transition from enchant > skill!
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 06, 2007, 11:19 AM // 11:19
|
#5
|
|
Pre-Searing Cadet
Join Date: Jan 2007
Guild: Your Dirty Secret [lies]
Profession: Mo/
|
Proposed Assassin Changes
So, you want the cheapest dazes in the game, on shorter recharges, all key critical strikes skills should be uninterruptable and non removable, have your attack skills so cheap that you don't need to worry about energy management, have them recharge before you finish your first attack chain and take some skills that are fine and even see play in high level gvg and buff them.
Maybe we should nerf blind and non-assassin block skills?
Temple strike is expensive because daze is a significant condition, and a buried daze is that much more significant. Meeting while enchanted isn't difficult, as well, for golden skull strike.
Attack skills are priced based on the effect, black mantis thrust allows you to apply a cripple which keeps the target from kiting while you unleash a combo, provided you have a hex on the target.
Golden phoneix strike allows you to skip the lead attack provided you are enchanted, which is not a hard condition to meet.
Aura of Displacement is a skill that was the main elite in ganking sins and is still viable, though it was previously overshadowed by the shadow prison/shadow of haste combo.
Repeating strike has two modes, unplayable and overpowered. It's like flare, it's either so weak people ignore it, strong enough where it's a threat but you are almost immediately punished for using it, or so strong that they don't have time to realize what you did with it because you just hit someone for two 300s with it and that person is dead.
Jagged strike has a place, for it's energy cost and recharge. It's a cheap, fast recharge skill with an okay effect that can be used to start of an expensive combo (temple strike->twisting fangs maybe?). Making all strong assassin attacks 5 energy and all 5 energy attacks strong might balance the assassin relative to itself, but not relative to the rest of the game.
Reducing fox fangs recharge, that's kind of an interesting suggestion. Do you really ever run into the situation where you execute an attack chain, hit your lead attack again and feel that the 8 second recharge on fox fangs is just too long?
Jungle strike is another example of a skill with a tradeoff. A cheap lead attack with a good amount of extra damage tacked on, which, if the condition is met can potentially hit for +59 (wow!), all for 5 energy. The recharge on it acts as a balancing mechanism.
Flashig blades is a bad skill, I agree, but reducing the energy cost and increasing the duration misses the mark. Flashing blades was a bad skill that you had to invest a moderate amount of energy in order to get dubious protection. With your proposed update, it would be a skill where you don't need to invest much of anything except an elite slot to get the same dubious protection. Don't forget, physical damage isn't the only thing out there, and anti melee skills just ruin your day. It would be interesting to see this skill have a 50% block rate always and anotehr 25% when attacking, and would have it see alot more play, in my opinion.
The suggestion to critical eye is a bit absurd, as is the reasoning behind it. First of all, your scale for duration is rather arbitrary (30 second recharge, 125 duration at 12 critical strikes, if you sacrificed the skill to diversion it wouldn't run out before it recharged) second of all, for the increase %hit, once again, the suggestions seems arbitrary, since you're talking about a 2% boost at 12 critical strikes. The skill itself is not wasted, it fits in bars that rely on high criticals or need the extra energy support and zealous daggers just won't cut it (lawl). The problem with this skill is that it's basically like running critical strikes at 25 instead of 12 and builds that rely on it either have poor energy management or rely on probability to get their effect, both of which tend to be weak builds.
Swap, btw, while amusing, is rather silly because it removes an aspect of the game that is very important to any competitive pvp, that aspect being positioning. The skill itself requires absolutely no attribute point investment, so, it can be run on any class without much loss from that build's potency. Let's not even go into what normally happens when people shadow step - interrupt, dropped items, what have you - and just forget you ever brought the idea up.
There are a few things to keep in mind when you look at skills and professions in general. First of all, it's that there have to be bad skills, as long as skills do different things, there will be dominant skills and ones that nobody ever uses. Buffing underused skills without understanding why they are underused leads to ever increasing imbalances.
It looks like what you want to do is rework the whole cost/binifit scheme of the assassin but don't seem to see the scheme already in place. Alot of the suggestions here are basically asking to remove any sort of decision making process from the assassin. You don't want to pick between expensive strong attacks and cheap weaker attacks, you'd rather just have them all cheap and strong. Alot of the suggestions to the skills seem to be just randomly increasing different scalar attributes of a skill with no real reason behind it other than "it's not good as it is." If you don't see what's wrong with that, then, I guess there's not much I can say.
Lastly, i'd like to ask you, what assassin skill do you think is overpowered? What needs a nerf in your opinion?
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 06, 2007, 05:52 PM // 17:52
|
#6
|
|
Jungle Guide
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Guild: Black Rose Gaming [BR]
|
Oh boy, this will take some time!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by stasmaster
So, you want the cheapest dazes in the game, on shorter recharges, all key critical strikes skills should be uninterruptable and non removable, have your attack skills so cheap that you don't need to worry about energy management, have them recharge before you finish your first attack chain and take some skills that are fine and even see play in high level gvg and buff them.
|
I didn't say that any of the daze skills should be on shorter recharges. I do think that basically every LEAD attack (and every non-Elite "lead requiring" offhand attack) needs to be on a 4 second recharge, though. The problem with attack chains that utilize a Lead attack is that you are taking too long to get to the Dual Attacks. Dual Attacks are the lifeblood of an Assassin. They are what make the horribly weak weapons called Daggers worth using. An attack chain such as Black Spider Strike + Horns of the Ox + Black Lotus Strike + Twisting Fangs is great because you are quickly and efficiently doing a lot of damage. Lead + Offhand + Dual chains gives your opponent two attacks to prepare for the Dual Attack. Those kind of attack chains also mean you can't use another Dual Attack very soon afterwards, unless you are using Mobius Strike or a "pure" offhand attack with the newly updated Death Blossom. And, if you DO use that kind of combo, it means you also need to be carrying Impale (a fifth attack skill) because you MUST HAVE some kind of Deep Wound.
This is what I mean when I say "Lead attacks need to be worth it!". There needs to be a good reason for you be spending more time to get to your Dual Attacks. Lead + lead requiring Offhand attacks need to be on those 4 second recharge timers so they can be used more often while the Dual Attack(s) recharge. That way an Assassin can do something like Leaping Mantis Sting + Jungle Strike + Horns of the Ox + Impale....and then be able to use Leaping + Jungle Strike by themselves and still have them recharged again by the time Horns of the Ox is recharged. You are giving up the faster spiking ability of a "pure" offhand attack + Dual attack in return for more pressure (if you can maintain the energy anyway).
Next idea....yes, key critical strikes skills should be uninterruptable and non removable (with the exception of Sharpen Daggers, which needs to have an activation time because it's just like a ranger preperation and it logically takes time to sharpen weapons). I do not see the problem with this. Rampage As One, Ritual Lord, Critical Eye, etc., are already like that. Obviously Rampage As One was a bit overpowered with the actual effect but none of the Assassin abilities I listed are on that same level.
As for attack skills being cheap, I only suggested lower costs on attack skills that need to cost less. Imagine if Black Spider Strike cost 10 energy, Horns of the Ox cost 10, and Twisting Fangs cost 15. Assassins would have been screwed. People use those skills because they were a few of the only GOOD skills around. Nobody at all uses Golden Phoenix Strike anymore. It's flat out overcosted and it wasn't effective back in the day either. Black Spider Strike costs 5 and causes poison. Black Lotus Strike GIVES you energy back. Golden Phoenix Strike has no additional bonus and costs 10. Clearly, there is a problem. It needs to cost 5 because it's worthless otherwise. I'm not trying to overpower skills here, I'm trying to make them PLAYABLE.
Quote:
|
Golden phoneix strike allows you to skip the lead attack provided you are enchanted, which is not a hard condition to meet.
|
Keeping yourself enchanted means using a skill slot to provide that effect, the same as using a skill slot for a hex to meet the requirements of the Black Strike skills. If you are arguing that Golden Phoenix Strike is balanced, then your argument also includes Black Spider Strike and Black Lotus Strike being overpowered. Which is not the case. Seriously, NOBODY uses Golden Phoenix Strike and there is a reason for that. The reason is that the skill is TOO costly.
Quote:
|
Temple strike is expensive because daze is a significant condition, and a buried daze is that much more significant. Meeting while enchanted isn't difficult, as well, for golden skull strike.
|
Yes, it's a significant condition, but these are ELITE skills. Why doesn't Bestial Mauling cost 15 energy? If it did, almost nobody would be using it. Just as now, nobody is using Temple Strike or Golden Jaw Strike for competitive PvP. If these skills were simply offhand attacks that did not require a lead attack then I would agree with their current costs. But they aren't. They require a lead attack and because of that, they are overcosted.
Quote:
|
Attack skills are priced based on the effect, black mantis thrust allows you to apply a cripple which keeps the target from kiting while you unleash a combo, provided you have a hex on the target.
|
Exactly the point, though...while you have a hex on the target. Putting a hex on the target requires energy. You are looking at a MININUM of 15 energy to cripple the target with the current Black Mantis Thrust. Let's assume your hex is Enduring Toxin...you just used 5 energy for the hex and 10 energy to use Black Mantis Thrust. You could have used Siphon Speed and Black Spider Strike instead...you are getting poison, which is the same degen as Enduring Toxin when it's at a healthy Deadly Arts level, and you are slowing your opponent's movement. You caused basically the exact same effect for 10 energy instead of 15. That's why Black Mantis Thrust needs to cost 5.
Quote:
|
Aura of Displacement is a skill that was the main elite in ganking sins and is still viable, though it was previously overshadowed by the shadow prison/shadow of haste combo.
|
I don't think it's still viable at all, not for a premium build. Ganking was never great back then. There are way better options than using Aura of Displacement in its current 10-energy form.
Quote:
|
Repeating strike has two modes, unplayable and overpowered. It's like flare, it's either so weak people ignore it, strong enough where it's a threat but you are almost immediately punished for using it, or so strong that they don't have time to realize what you did with it because you just hit someone for two 300s with it and that person is dead.
|
I have no idea what you just said. Two 300s?
Quote:
|
The suggestion to critical eye is a bit absurd, as is the reasoning behind it. First of all, your scale for duration is rather arbitrary (30 second recharge, 125 duration at 12 critical strikes, if you sacrificed the skill to diversion it wouldn't run out before it recharged) second of all, for the increase %hit, once again, the suggestions seems arbitrary, since you're talking about a 2% boost at 12 critical strikes. The skill itself is not wasted, it fits in bars that rely on high criticals or need the extra energy support and zealous daggers just won't cut it (lawl). The problem with this skill is that it's basically like running critical strikes at 25 instead of 12 and builds that rely on it either have poor energy management or rely on probability to get their effect, both of which tend to be weak builds.
|
You say the skill itself is not wasted and then you go on to say that any build using this skill is going to be weak. Uh, okay then. The skill itself is ENTIRELY poor. You say it fits in bars that need extra energy support...spending 5 energy every 30 seconds totally lessens the extra amount of energy that you'll be receiving from it and the bonus critical % isn't large to enough to have much effect on DPS. The skill needs to last for a LONG time so that it actually does provide a worthwhile amount of energy gain over time to make it worth a skillslot for builds that are searing for the energy.
Quote:
|
Jagged strike has a place, for it's energy cost and recharge. It's a cheap, fast recharge skill with an okay effect that can be used to start of an expensive combo (temple strike->twisting fangs maybe?). Making all strong assassin attacks 5 energy and all 5 energy attacks strong might balance the assassin relative to itself, but not relative to the rest of the game.
|
Right now Assassins AREN'T balanced relative to the rest of the game. They are underpowered and almost completely unused for major PvP. THAT is the problem. What you describe as a "strong" attack isn't strong at all. I've explained why Black Mantis Thrust should be 5 energy - that's what it's worth.
Also, the example you gave is already flawed. If you are using Jagged Strike + Temple Strike + Twisting Fangs, what good does it do for Jagged Strike to be a on a 4 second recharge? You need to wait 20 seconds before you can use Temple Strike again. Why not just use Leaping Mantis Sting instead? Perhaps you could add Wild Strike to your bar to make use of the fast-recharging Jagged Strike. Okay then...Jagged Strike + Temple Strike + Twisting Fangs + Jagged Strike + Wild Strike. You just spent 45 energy. It's nearly impossible to get that much energy. You'd have to to be using Critical Eye and Way of the Lotus to maintain it...so you've now used up 6 skill slots to achieve this effect. But, really, what effect have you achieved? You still haven't done enough damage to kill your opponent and your skillbar is going to be almost completely devoid of utility or self-healing. Wow, good job. These skills are SOOOO balanced! They don't need improvement at all!
Quote:
|
Jungle strike is another example of a skill with a tradeoff. A cheap lead attack with a good amount of extra damage tacked on, which, if the condition is met can potentially hit for +59 (wow!), all for 5 energy. The recharge on it acts as a balancing mechanism.
|
Actually, it's an OFFHAND attack. So you need to be using a Lead Attack to power it. Something like Hex + Black Mantis Thrust + Jungle Strike would be great if both skills were 5 energy, 4 second recharge and I don't think it would be overpowered. You have to remember, Assassin attack skills are making up for the fact that their weapons SUCK. A Warrior or Dervish that's just standing there and swinging is going to have a much higher DPS than an Assassin. Because Daggers are horrible and because Assassin attack chains are dependant on each attack hitting for the next one to work, the skills themselves MUST BE STRONG.
Quote:
|
Flashig blades is a bad skill, I agree, but reducing the energy cost and increasing the duration misses the mark. Flashing blades was a bad skill that you had to invest a moderate amount of energy in order to get dubious protection. With your proposed update, it would be a skill where you don't need to invest much of anything except an elite slot to get the same dubious protection. Don't forget, physical damage isn't the only thing out there, and anti melee skills just ruin your day. It would be interesting to see this skill have a 50% block rate always and anotehr 25% when attacking, and would have it see alot more play, in my opinion.
|
50% block rate always and 25% more when attacking is interesting, something to think about. It might ruin the flavor of the skill, though. "Flashing Blades" refers to the Assassin whirling around and moving his daggers in such a manner to block attacks. Can't really do that while running. I do think the skill could still have a place as a pure 75% chance to block while attacking if the energy cost was low enough to not hinder the Assassin's ability to do other things (such as keeping the enemy constantly crippled so that you can keep attacking instead of chasing).
Quote:
|
Swap, btw, while amusing, is rather silly because it removes an aspect of the game that is very important to any competitive pvp, that aspect being positioning. The skill itself requires absolutely no attribute point investment, so, it can be run on any class without much loss from that build's potency. Let's not even go into what normally happens when people shadow step - interrupt, dropped items, what have you - and just forget you ever brought the idea up.
|
People wouldn't drop items when you summon them. It's not hard to code. It does not remove positioning from the game, it just makes it more interesting. Obviously the skill would need to be carefully balanced with the recharge time and perhaps would need to be made exclusive to Assassin primaries. Really, though, your entire post is closed minded. Think of possibilities, not limitations.
Quote:
|
There are a few things to keep in mind when you look at skills and professions in general. First of all, it's that there have to be bad skills, as long as skills do different things, there will be dominant skills and ones that nobody ever uses. Buffing underused skills without understanding why they are underused leads to ever increasing imbalances.
|
There absolutely do NOT have to be "bad" skills. Certainly some skills will see less use than others and a "perfect" balance will never be acheived. However, I DO understand why skills are underused. There is a reason ANET is testing skill buffs for a ton of Assassin skills. I'm throwing my input into the mix as to what needs to be changed. If everything I suggest was implemented into a test weekend, I don't think you'd be hearing top-level people complaining about how overpowered the class is. I think they'd be happy that the class was USEFUL and Balanced.
Quote:
|
It looks like what you want to do is rework the whole cost/binifit scheme of the assassin but don't seem to see the scheme already in place. Alot of the suggestions here are basically asking to remove any sort of decision making process from the assassin. You don't want to pick between expensive strong attacks and cheap weaker attacks, you'd rather just have them all cheap and strong. Alot of the suggestions to the skills seem to be just randomly increasing different scalar attributes of a skill with no real reason behind it other than "it's not good as it is." If you don't see what's wrong with that, then, I guess there's not much I can say.
|
I've explained why most every attack needs to be cheap and strong. Daggers suck and Assassins have low armor. When compared to a Warrior who has high Armor and strong DPS simply by swinging his weapon, Assassins need to make up for it somehow. In the case of Lead Attacks, they all basically need to be 5 energy and a 4 second recharge and I've explained why. It doesn't remove the decision making process from the Assassin at all. They are picking which skill fits best into their build and their teams build with VIABLE skills instead of crap skills. Believe me, I've tried EVERY Assassin build that's possible. Really.
Quote:
|
Lastly, i'd like to ask you, what assassin skill do you think is overpowered? What needs a nerf in your opinion?
|
Nothing, currently. Feigned Nuetrality got it's nerf.
~Z
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 06, 2007, 08:09 PM // 20:09
|
#7
|
|
Ascalonian Squire
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by stasmaster
Repeating strike has two modes, unplayable and overpowered. It's like flare, it's either so weak people ignore it, strong enough where it's a threat but you are almost immediately punished for using it, or so strong that they don't have time to realize what you did with it because you just hit someone for two 300s with it and that person is dead.
|
I totally agree with unplayable mode, but overpowered? WTH???
Can you PLEASE show me in which way this skill can be overpowered(I used almost all combinations I could do with it:conjures etc. and none of them amused me)?
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 07, 2007, 12:42 AM // 00:42
|
#8
|
|
Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Apr 2006
Guild: Amazon Basin [AB]
Profession: Mo/Me
|
He means to say that if you buffed repeating to the point it was playable, it would also be overpowered. This is basically the case with flare, because either you spend all your energy spamming flare 99% of the time and ignoring the rest of your skillbar, or you probably aren't using flare. It doesn't play very well with other skills, unless you somehow found it worth bringing a ton of high-powered, high-recharge, low-cost skills for the rest of your bar.
Repeating isn't quite the same because you need to land a dual and off-hand first, you have to hold off on your dual until you are done with repeating, and you have to start the combo over again when switching targets. But it's still problematic.
Last edited by FoxBat; Feb 07, 2007 at 12:45 AM // 00:45..
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 07, 2007, 02:06 AM // 02:06
|
#9
|
|
Pre-Searing Cadet
Join Date: Jan 2007
Guild: Your Dirty Secret [lies]
Profession: Mo/
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zuranthium
Next idea....yes, key critical strikes skills should be uninterruptable and non removable (with the exception of Sharpen Daggers, which needs to have an activation time because it's just like a ranger preperation and it logically takes time to sharpen weapons). I do not see the problem with this. Rampage As One, Ritual Lord, Critical Eye, etc., are already like that. Obviously Rampage As One was a bit overpowered with the actual effect but none of the Assassin abilities I listed are on that same level.
|
RaO got nerfed, so did ritual lord, and critical eye does not really compare to some of the effects you get from critical strikes. In the end, it's better to make the effects of the skills better than them consume no time, energy, and be unremovable.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zuranthium
Keeping yourself enchanted means using a skill slot to provide that effect, the same as using a skill slot for a hex to meet the requirements of the Black Strike skills. If you are arguing that Golden Phoenix Strike is balanced, then your argument also includes Black Spider Strike and Black Lotus Strike being overpowered. Which is not the case. Seriously, NOBODY uses Golden Phoenix Strike and there is a reason for that. The reason is that the skill is TOO costly.
|
Keeping a hex on the target requires a skill slot too. The reason that people run black spider strike is because relying on a hex on a target as opposed to an enchantment on yourself is not much of a problem for them, and the poison applied to go along with twisting fangs is more useful than just extra damage. If black spider was 10 energy and golden phoenix was 5, people would still use black spider. This is not to say that golden phoenix is useless, it's just that the advantages it provides aren't as valued by the pvp comunity these days. Personally, having gone up against shadow prison in all it's forms, I think that using a hex in a spike is only viable for eurospike, but when you're ganking it's all the same, since there usually isn't a monk around, or a spike, for that matter. If I had sins on a stand team in gvg, I would preffer the golden attacks to the black ones, since they aren't given away by hexes.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zuranthium
Why doesn't Bestial Mauling cost 15 energy? If it did, almost nobody would be using it. Just as now, nobody is using Temple Strike or Golden Jaw Strike for competitive PvP. If these skills were simply offhand attacks that did not require a lead attack then I would agree with their current costs.
|
First of all, bestial mauling is a skill that relies on the unreliable pet attack. It's only viable use is in a thumper build, that has it's elite already locked in, because they meet it's condition for the daze application. Golden Jaw Strike isn't used in pvp because the daze is unburied and is more conditional than temple strike. It's a cheaper daze than temple strike and is fine that way, what is limiting it in competitive play is the fact that alot of the time the daze will get removed only a second after it hits, whereas temple strike instantly buries it. The reason temple strike does not see much competitive play anymore is because in HA you're very likely to run up against teams running recovery and that reduces the effectiveness of temple strike to next to nothing. Reducing cost is not the solution to these problems.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zuranthium
Let's assume your hex is Enduring Toxin...you just used 5 energy for the hex and 10 energy to use Black Mantis Thrust. You could have used Siphon Speed and Black Spider Strike instead...you are getting poison, which is the same degen as Enduring Toxin when it's at a healthy Deadly Arts level, and you are slowing your opponent's movement. You caused basically the exact same effect for 10 energy instead of 15. That's why Black Mantis Thrust needs to cost 5.
|
A cripple that you can guarantee is alot more powerfull than poison in the same situation. If your goal is to snare and degen, yes, black spider strike is better. In a team situation, the cripple that black mantis provides is just not used because other professions have better alternatives. It's not that it's not a valuable effect worth the 10 energy, it's just that i'd rather have a ranger do my cripling than an assassin.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zuranthium
I don't think it's still viable at all, not for a premium build. Ganking was never great back then. There are way better options than using Aura of Displacement in its current 10-energy form.
|
Aura of displacement is viable, and has been seeing play in high level gvg. It allows you to easily meet the while enchanted requirements of alot of golden whatever skills and the attack chains, while a bit pricy, are quick and potent. The reason it does not get used on RA sins and alot of GvG sins is because the offhand attack does not apply poison like black spider strike does. It provides advantages over the hex chains, however, so, it's still quite viable.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zuranthium
I have no idea what you just said. Two 300s?
|
If Repeating strike hit for 300 each time you hit with it, then the fact that it's a very weak skill just does not matter. If it's buffed to the point where spamming repeating strike becomes viable, it's going to be the first skill disabled on the assassin's skill bar. The more overpowered it becomes, the more it's flaw becomes obvious. If it ever does 300 damage per hit, the damage will finally overcome the fact that it's so limited and people will start playing it. This is an example of a skill that is going to be either unplayable or stupidly overpowered.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zuranthium
You say the skill itself is not wasted and then you go on to say that any build using this skill is going to be weak. Uh, okay then. The skill itself is ENTIRELY poor.
|
No, just because weak builds need it does not make it a weak skill. It's a skill that has a benifit, but the better people and builds get, the more they don't need to rely on the skill. 5 energy every 30 seconds is negligible. If you do well, the skill should more than pay for itself in it's duration.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zuranthium
Right now Assassins AREN'T balanced relative to the rest of the game. They are underpowered and almost completely unused for major PvP. THAT is the problem. What you describe as a "strong" attack isn't strong at all. I've explained why Black Mantis Thrust should be 5 energy - that's what it's worth.
|
The reason that assassins aren't used alot in gvg - looked at HA lately, btw? - is because they are conditional and fragile, not because their lack strong attacks. Lead attacks aren't common because nobody cares about *any* of the attacks up untill you hit twisting fangs. Assassins aren't common at the flag stand because things like aegis, wards, blind, and snares reduced their effectiveness by alot more than other classes. It's not because they can't do damage, but because they are too easy to shut down. If their attacks get to the point where the fact that they are very limited does not matter - when they are overpowered - then they will be just another grenth dervish, the guy you try to land dshot on, or barring that, spike first, or shut down some other way (lots of ways to shut down a sin)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zuranthium
Perhaps you could add Wild Strike to your bar to make use of the fast-recharging Jagged Strike. Okay then...Jagged Strike + Temple Strike + Twisting Fangs + Jagged Strike + Wild Strike. You just spent 45 energy. It's nearly impossible to get that much energy.
|
For starters, yes, it's alot of energy, but temple strike is an expensive skill that applies a very powerful condition that is already buried under another one, and opens up the way for you to cover it with two more conditions, deep wound included, unless there's an RC or a draw in the party, that person is going to be sitting out the daze duration. The point with temple strike isn't to spam attack skills, it's to spam daze. Personally, I like leaping mantis for the potential cripple and the cheap lead attack, temple strike and twisting fangs fit into the bar naturally, a shadow step, interrupt, condition removal, self heal, and rez sig will give you a versatile build that is playable, energy wise, without zealous daggers, and is a very big threat out there. Because of the fact that I don't need to spam attack skills to get the effect of the bar, I don't need critical eye, or way of the lotus, i'm using only 3 slots for an attack chain, and have everything needed to make a very rounded assassin.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zuranthium
Because Daggers are horrible and because Assassin attack chains are dependant on each attack hitting for the next one to work, the skills themselves MUST BE STRONG.
|
The skill part of a playing an assassin is securing a kill before you execute your chain. If you are worried about an attack missing, then your chain has failed already. Sneaking in a kill when someone is not paying attention or completely destroying an unsuspecting player that has strayed too far from the main group. Battlefield awareness and an ability to find and take advantage of kill opportunities is valued and rewarded as an assassin. I would dread the day where an assassin can get two attacks off, get his chain broken and still score a kill. Leave the DPS to warriors, finesse it.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zuranthium
50% block rate always and 25% more when attacking is interesting, something to think about. It might ruin the flavor of the skill, though. "Flashing Blades" refers to the Assassin whirling around and moving his daggers in such a manner to block attacks. Can't really do that while running.
|
I would rather have a skill that works well than a skill that works the way I "picture it working." Besides, how do you know that you can't block attacks while running? Plenty of stances do that.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zuranthium
People wouldn't drop items when you summon them. It's not hard to code. It does not remove positioning from the game, it just makes it more interesting. Obviously the skill would need to be carefully balanced with the recharge time and perhaps would need to be made exclusive to Assassin primaries. Really, though, your entire post is closed minded. Think of possibilities, not limitations.
|
What you don't realize is that at any cost or recharge, the skill would be overpowered. The ability to dictate the location of an enemy player at any time in the game would completely ruin positional play. Why is the monk keeping in the backlines when an assassin can swap with him and put him in the middle of 3 warriors ready to spike him? Youre team couldn't body block the flag runner? that's okay, swap with him and send back for another shot at it. I'm not closed minded, I just don't spend as much time in RA.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zuranthium
There absolutely do NOT have to be "bad" skills. Certainly some skills will see less use than others and a "perfect" balance will never be acheived. However, I DO understand why skills are underused. There is a reason ANET is testing skill buffs for a ton of Assassin skills. I'm throwing my input into the mix as to what needs to be changed. If everything I suggest was implemented into a test weekend, I don't think you'd be hearing top-level people complaining about how overpowered the class is. I think they'd be happy that the class was USEFUL and Balanced.
|
There do have to be bad skills, though. Repeating strike is a perfect example of that. Flare, succor, power attack, all skills that are simply not viable unless they buff them to the point of stupidity. That is the path you are treading down. If you think a 5 energy golden phoenix will see more play than before, you are in for a surprise. If all of a sudden flashing a super charged critical defensese or flashing blades will let you make a sin that can tank all sorts of melee pressure and keep attacking, high level players won't be complaining how overpowered the assassin is, they'll just be laughing at how anet is missing the mark on making assassins more viable and bringing a versatile counter. The thing about assassins isn't that they don't do enough damage or their skills are to expensive. It's that they are very inflexible and the changes you are proposing aren't increasing flexibility, just making skills do more damage for less energy. The mechanics on some skills are bad, instead of making these skills more powerful but still just as bad, think on how to rework the skills to make them good.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zuranthium
In the case of Lead Attacks, they all basically need to be 5 energy and a 4 second recharge and I've explained why. It doesn't remove the decision making process from the Assassin at all. They are picking which skill fits best into their build and their teams build with VIABLE skills instead of crap skills.
|
The reason it removes all decision making proccess is because skill cost and recharge *is* balanced against the effect they produce. If every skill cost the same and recharged in 4 seconds, then all you'd have to do is pick the best 4 second recharge of the bunch, and trust me, there will still be one.
I will agree with you that the assassin profession needs work, things like the impale update work twoards making assassins that have attack chains that are viable not just cheaper and more damaging. Reworking the mechanics of some underused skills is called for, but first, understanding why they are underused is important, and alot of the skill updates you suggested just miss the mark. You have to understand why you don't see alot of assassins are not seeing play on gvg stand teams and figure out a way to make them more viable but not overpowered, you can't just randomly increase damage, decrease recharge, and decrease cost, expecting that assassins will be better balanced.
And for djbartek, the skill can be overpowered if they buff the damage on the skill to the point where the fact that it's very limited does not matter at all. Channeled strike on the ritualist did good damage, provided that you met the requirement, but the channeling tree didn't have the utility of something like blinding flash/surge on an air ele. When destructive was glaive was buffed, the first time, all of that didn't matter because the sheer damage that channeled strike could put out was silly.
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 07, 2007, 05:23 AM // 05:23
|
#10
|
|
Jungle Guide
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Guild: Black Rose Gaming [BR]
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by stasmaster
RaO got nerfed, so did ritual lord, and critical eye does not really compare to some of the effects you get from critical strikes. In the end, it's better to make the effects of the skills better than them consume no time, energy, and be unremovable.
|
Uhh, they still take energy. I don't think you understand these skills. Imagine Frenzy with a 1 second activation time. Horrible. Things like Frenzy and Locusts Fury, for example, need to be instant.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by stasmaster
Keeping a hex on the target requires a skill slot too. The reason that people run black spider strike is because relying on a hex on a target as opposed to an enchantment on yourself is not much of a problem for them, and the poison applied to go along with twisting fangs is more useful than just extra damage. If black spider was 10 energy and golden phoenix was 5, people would still use black spider. This is not to say that golden phoenix is useless, it's just that the advantages it provides aren't as valued by the pvp comunity these days. Personally, having gone up against shadow prison in all it's forms, I think that using a hex in a spike is only viable for eurospike, but when you're ganking it's all the same, since there usually isn't a monk around, or a spike, for that matter. If I had sins on a stand team in gvg, I would preffer the golden attacks to the black ones, since they aren't given away by hexes.
|
If you are using a Black Strike Assassin in your team build then you should already have other hexes such as Diversion in the build so that your spike isn't given away so clearly. That's not a problem at all. Obviously Golden Phoenix Strike is not "useless", but it's HIGHLY inefficient and not good enough for competitive PvP, imo.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by stasmaster
First of all, bestial mauling is a skill that relies on the unreliable pet attack. It's only viable use is in a thumper build, that has it's elite already locked in, because they meet it's condition for the daze application. Golden Jaw Strike isn't used in pvp because the daze is unburied and is more conditional than temple strike. It's a cheaper daze than temple strike and is fine that way, what is limiting it in competitive play is the fact that alot of the time the daze will get removed only a second after it hits, whereas temple strike instantly buries it. The reason temple strike does not see much competitive play anymore is because in HA you're very likely to run up against teams running recovery and that reduces the effectiveness of temple strike to next to nothing. Reducing cost is not the solution to these problems.
|
Not making any sense again. No matter that Bestial Mauling is only viable for a thumper build, the fact is that the skill IS viable and HAS seen play in top level Guilds. The costs of these Assassin daze-causing skill is indeed a problem. It eats up too much energy, therefore limiting your ability to do other things. Yes, dazed is a powerful condition, but when you're spending almost all of your energy to use Lead Attack + Temple Strike + Twisting Fangs every 20 seconds, it's simply not enough.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by stasmaster
A cripple that you can guarantee is alot more powerfull than poison in the same situation. If your goal is to snare and degen, yes, black spider strike is better. In a team situation, the cripple that black mantis provides is just not used because other professions have better alternatives. It's not that it's not a valuable effect worth the 10 energy, it's just that i'd rather have a ranger do my cripling than an assassin.
|
What does cripple vs. poison have to do with anything? The fact is that you need a hex for Black Mantis to work. If you NEED to be using a hex and you are trying to slow your opponent, why not use Siphon Speed and Black Spider Strike instead? It costs less energy, the same amount of skillslots, and automatically opens you up for a Dual Attack.
And...only Rangers are good for applying cripple? Wow...I wonder why so many great teams have used CRIPPLING SWEEP on their Dervishes. A skill that, imo, would be rarely used if it cost 10 energy.
Quote:
|
Aura of displacement is viable, and has been seeing play in high level gvg. It allows you to easily meet the while enchanted requirements of alot of golden whatever skills and the attack chains, while a bit pricy, are quick and potent. The reason it does not get used on RA sins and alot of GvG sins is because the offhand attack does not apply poison like black spider strike does. It provides advantages over the hex chains, however, so, it's still quite viable.
|
I've seen it used a total of 0 times the past season. And I've observed a LOT of matches. I think you're flat out lying. Back when AoD was used in GvG, they weren't as effective as people wanted to think they were.
Quote:
|
If Repeating strike hit for 300 each time you hit with it, then the fact that it's a very weak skill just does not matter. If it's buffed to the point where spamming repeating strike becomes viable, it's going to be the first skill disabled on the assassin's skill bar. The more overpowered it becomes, the more it's flaw becomes obvious. If it ever does 300 damage per hit, the damage will finally overcome the fact that it's so limited and people will start playing it. This is an example of a skill that is going to be either unplayable or stupidly overpowered.
|
No, it can definitely be playable without being overpowered. The problem with Repeating Strike (other than Way of the Empty Palm needing a faster recharge, one of the builds where the skill is possibly useful) is that it can not follow a Lead Attack (if those attacks were any good in the first place) and act as the necessary offhand attack in those attack chains. You need to waste another skillslot on a different offhand attack to enable Repeating Strike. If it could follow a Lead attack, and Lead attacks became viable as well, you could follow the Lead attack with Repeating Strike until the opportune time came to use your Dual Attack.
Quote:
|
No, just because weak builds need it does not make it a weak skill. It's a skill that has a benifit, but the better people and builds get, the more they don't need to rely on the skill. 5 energy every 30 seconds is negligible. If you do well, the skill should more than pay for itself in it's duration.
|
It's not negligible at all. The skill is not like Glyph of Lesser Energy where you're getting 25 or 30 energy every 30 seconds for that 5 energy. You're not going to get that many criticals over that period of time. It needs to last longer so that the energy gained over time IS actually worthwhile. Otherwise, not worth it.
Quote:
|
The reason that assassins aren't used alot in gvg - looked at HA lately, btw? - is because they are conditional and fragile, not because their lack strong attacks. Lead attacks aren't common because nobody cares about *any* of the attacks up untill you hit twisting fangs. Assassins aren't common at the flag stand because things like aegis, wards, blind, and snares reduced their effectiveness by alot more than other classes. It's not because they can't do damage, but because they are too easy to shut down. If their attacks get to the point where the fact that they are very limited does not matter - when they are overpowered - then they will be just another grenth dervish, the guy you try to land dshot on, or barring that, spike first, or shut down some other way (lots of ways to shut down a sin)
|
Actually, it IS, partly. Warrior and Dervish DPS is better than Assasin DPS. Shadow Prison Warriors have been more favored than a Shadow Prison Assassin for GvG because when they're not spiking they can do more damage (and stay alive better). Aside from the fact that I think teleports should empty adrenaline pools (therefore making teleporting Warriors basically impossible), Assassins have NOTHING good they can do aside from teleport spikes. There should be viable Assassin builds that can do something other than massive solo-spiking. That's why I think it's important to make ALL the skills good and give the Assassin class a lot more options when it comes to filling a role the team needs. Things like the new Impale change are exactly what was needed. The skill was previously doing shit damage and therefore wasn't useful. Now an Assassin can fire off 2 or 3 attack skills, make the opposing team think the target is getting spiked, and then fire off the Damge + Deep Wound later on, such as when the Assassin's team is doing the REAL spike.
Quote:
|
For starters, yes, it's alot of energy, but temple strike is an expensive skill that applies a very powerful condition that is already buried under another one, and opens up the way for you to cover it with two more conditions, deep wound included, unless there's an RC or a draw in the party, that person is going to be sitting out the daze duration. The point with temple strike isn't to spam attack skills, it's to spam daze. Personally, I like leaping mantis for the potential cripple and the cheap lead attack, temple strike and twisting fangs fit into the bar naturally, a shadow step, interrupt, condition removal, self heal, and rez sig will give you a versatile build that is playable, energy wise, without zealous daggers, and is a very big threat out there. Because of the fact that I don't need to spam attack skills to get the effect of the bar, I don't need critical eye, or way of the lotus, i'm using only 3 slots for an attack chain, and have everything needed to make a very rounded assassin.
|
As I already stated, your attack combo takes 30 energy every 20 seconds. The Assassin is naturally going to gain 27 energy over that period of time. He is depending on bonus energy from critical strikes to do ANYTHING else besides those 3 attacks every 20 seconds. Better Lead Attacks and less energy on the actual Temple Strike skill are needed to make it a viable build.
Also, you did not answer the part of my response where I questioned what made Jagged Strike useful in its current form.
Quote:
|
The skill part of a playing an assassin is securing a kill before you execute your chain. If you are worried about an attack missing, then your chain has failed already. Sneaking in a kill when someone is not paying attention or completely destroying an unsuspecting player that has strayed too far from the main group. Battlefield awareness and an ability to find and take advantage of kill opportunities is valued and rewarded as an assassin. I would dread the day where an assassin can get two attacks off, get his chain broken and still score a kill. Leave the DPS to warriors, finesse it.
|
Show me one change I suggested that would allow an Assassin to kill any target with only two attack skills. You're missing the point.
Quote:
|
I would rather have a skill that works well than a skill that works the way I "picture it working." Besides, how do you know that you can't block attacks while running? Plenty of stances do that.
|
Yes most stances block while running, but the flavor of "Flashing Blades" is that the Assassin is attacking so fast that he's whirling his daggers around to block attacks. Does the spell "Fireball" have an animation of a dog being thrown at the opponent? No. It has a ball of flame being hurdled from the Elementalist's hands. That's simply the essense of these skills.
Quote:
|
What you don't realize is that at any cost or recharge, the skill would be overpowered. The ability to dictate the location of an enemy player at any time in the game would completely ruin positional play. Why is the monk keeping in the backlines when an assassin can swap with him and put him in the middle of 3 warriors ready to spike him? Youre team couldn't body block the flag runner? that's okay, swap with him and send back for another shot at it. I'm not closed minded, I just don't spend as much time in RA.
|
"At any cost or recharge" the skill would be overpowered? That simply IS closed minded. Surely you could find some happy medium to make it work. Like I said, it does need to be carefully balanced though. Perhaps it needs to be a half-range. I know there's a way to make it work and I'm sorry if it's too overwhelming of a concept for you. It's an interesting mechanic that NEEDS to be explored. It would make teams MORE mindful of their positioning, imo. People would eventually adapt and become better players as a result.
Quote:
|
There do have to be bad skills, though. Repeating strike is a perfect example of that. Flare, succor, power attack, all skills that are simply not viable unless they buff them to the point of stupidity. That is the path you are treading down. If you think a 5 energy golden phoenix will see more play than before, you are in for a surprise. If all of a sudden flashing a super charged critical defensese or flashing blades will let you make a sin that can tank all sorts of melee pressure and keep attacking, high level players won't be complaining how overpowered the assassin is, they'll just be laughing at how anet is missing the mark on making assassins more viable and bringing a versatile counter. The thing about assassins isn't that they don't do enough damage or their skills are to expensive. It's that they are very inflexible and the changes you are proposing aren't increasing flexibility, just making skills do more damage for less energy. The mechanics on some skills are bad, instead of making these skills more powerful but still just as bad, think on how to rework the skills to make them good.
|
Part of the inflexibility of the Assassin is that many of their skills cost too much, making it so that they do not have the energy to utilize OTHER abilities. Abilities of their secondary class, for example. No skill HAS to be either retarded or overpowered.
Also, once again, it's completely possible for something like Flare to be useful without being overpowered. For example, a Fire Elem who specializes in AoE spells (should they actually ever become good) and also uses Kinetic Armor for defense. While his AoE spells are recharging he needs something to do fairly constantly that won't use up too much energy. Flare fills that role and additionally has the ability to dish out a good amount of damage in a short period of damage with just 1 skill, for skermishes. The skill doesn't just have to be a mindless "hit the button, hit the button, hit the button" ability. It's only people like you that are boxing it up like that.
Quote:
|
The reason it removes all decision making proccess is because skill cost and recharge *is* balanced against the effect they produce. If every skill cost the same and recharged in 4 seconds, then all you'd have to do is pick the best 4 second recharge of the bunch, and trust me, there will still be one.
|
No, completely untrue. Different lead attacks have different effects. You'd pick the attack you want for the build you're making. If you want a Cripple and you're using a hex, go with Black Mantis. If you want a Cripple but you don't have room for the hex, using Leaping Mantis. If you just want a reliable attack and you're using a reliable enchantment, go with Golden Fox Strike. So on and so forth.
Quote:
|
I will agree with you that the assassin profession needs work, things like the impale update work twoards making assassins that have attack chains that are viable not just cheaper and more damaging. Reworking the mechanics of some underused skills is called for, but first, understanding why they are underused is important, and alot of the skill updates you suggested just miss the mark. You have to understand why you don't see alot of assassins are not seeing play on gvg stand teams and figure out a way to make them more viable but not overpowered, you can't just randomly increase damage, decrease recharge, and decrease cost, expecting that assassins will be better balanced.
|
I'm not just "randomly" decreasing recharge or cost. I've used EVERY Assassin skill out there. Pretty much all of them suck because you're not getting enough of an effect for the time and/or energy spent. Only a handful of Assassin skills are worth using and, incidentally, those are the only ones that DO see use. I believe I have a VERY good handle on how skills need to be improved to make them useful. You have not proven to me that YOU understand the downfalls of certain skills, such as you saying "Hey, Jagged Strike is useful" and then failing to come up with a reason.
------
I do love a good discussion, though. Thank you very much and I hope more people reply with similarly lengthy opinions.
~Z
Last edited by Zuranthium; Feb 07, 2007 at 05:26 AM // 05:26..
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 07, 2007, 08:27 PM // 20:27
|
#11
|
|
Ascalonian Squire
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zuranthium
I do love a good discussion, though. Thank you very much and I hope more people reply with similarly lengthy opinions.
|
As you wish 
Like I said, I agree with your Enchant--->Skill suggestion and "all leads 5 en and 4 recharge", but there are some things I would like to discuss.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zuranthium
Dark Apostasy - Change to a skill with automatic activation and decrease to 5 energy.
Why? - Because standing there casting a spell for 2 seconds as an Assassin is way too obvious and if left as a removable enchantment that requires so much energy, there would be non-Elite methods of removing enchantments that would be preferrable.
|
The problem here is imo not en cost, recharge or other things like that, but the effect the skill gives. Now when Assault Enchantments got 2 sec recharge, it literally PULVERIZES Dark Apostacy. This skill, as long as you can keep dual attack mark on enemy(which isn't a problem), can easily remove all enchantments from foe FROM RANGE as many times as your energy pool, 2 sec recharge and presence of dual attack mark enables you. It's also a skill, so elites like Spellbreaker or Obsidian Flesh aren't a problem either.
Not mentioning Shattering Assault, which is also a lot better than Dark Apostacy now(although it's currently imo bugged, but when they fix it, it will also be a very good enchant removal).
Dark Apostacy imho needs a complete rework, but I don't have any idea now what into.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zuranthium
Deadly Haste - Change to a skill with automatic activation.
Why? - Because you could make some great builds with this skill but at the moment it's too risky to really be worth it.
|
The problem I see with this skill is that actually for it to be really useful and worth its skill slot, you need to take significiant amount of Half-ranged spells(skills). And doing so is profitable only in Deadly Arts builds, where Deadly Paradox is a lot better choice for boosting your skills recharge(you don't use attack skills anyway in DA builds and it's harder to remove it).
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zuranthium
Locust's Fury - Decrease to 5 energy and change to a skill with automatic activation. All other current updates are perfect.
Why? - Because this is similar to a Instant-Attack-Speed ability (though not nearly as good because it doesn't help your attack chains) and I don't recall frenzy/flurry/tiger's stance being easily removable. It's also a waste of time to be casting this when you need to be attacking and 10 energy is too unwieldy for the effect that it gives.
|
This skill imo just perpetually sucks and is flawed.It has no synergy with present Assassin skills at all. Giving this IAS or some bonus dmg(let's say... one point per rank in CS, so +13 with 13 CS) would make it more appealing, but I don't think I would use it even with one of those
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zuranthium
Palm Strike - Decrease to 5 energy and an 8 second recharge.
Why? - Because it's an Elite and deserves to be better than other Offhand attacks that are non-Elite.
|
This skill good offhand that doesn't require lead... and only that, nothing more.
TBH, right now there are just better Elites worth taking over Palm Strike, elites that can do something more than just dmg dealing. I'm not saying it's a bad Elite, but if I was given a choice between Palm Strke and Moebius Strike(both serve somewhat the same role) I would always take Moebius Strike(it's simply better).
BUT if this skill was given Shadowstep effect, like the one Beguiling Haze got, it would imo be definately better and it would become an elite which is worth being considered for taking.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zuranthium
Sleeping Wound - Decrease to 1/4 second cast and 5 second recharge.
Why? - Because the effect isn't that amazing for an Elite but if spammable the skill could actually become useful for condition pressure builds and as a cover hex.
|
I will put this straight: give this elite 1...10 health lost per second and additional 1...10 when target is bleeding or poisoned, and it will be worth it's Elite status.
The other alternative I came up is to buff it's degen a bit and give it -33% benefit from healing.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zuranthium
Way of the Assassin - Change to a skill with automatic activation, remove the "while enchanted" conditionality, and dramatically increase the duration (same as Critical Eye).
Why? - Because the effect is already barely worthy of being an ELITE, so it should always be working and you should have the option to use an IAS stance with it.
|
Right now Critical Eye is more Elite worthy(cannot be removed, gives you additional energy per critical, lasts longer). The only imo way of making it a worthy Elite is to give it +25% IAS. Yes, it might be a bit brutal, but if even AN hadn't hestitated when they released Nightfall with RaO in its obviously overpowered form...
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zuranthium
Golden Skull Strike - Reduce to 5 energy.
Why? - To balance out with Temple Strike.
|
Giving it 5 en is imo not enough to make this skill appealing, taking into account that you also reduced Temple Strike cost to 10 en. Imo: apart from reducing it to 5 en, make the Daze part unconditional, and give it conditional(enchanted) ~+30 dmg. Temple Strike would still have its advantages(buries daze with blind, interrupts spells, its effect is unconditional), but GSS would become an alternative worth considering.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zuranthium
Repeating Strike - Should be able to follow any Lead or Offhand melee attack.
Why? - Because there isn't much use for it right now. It should be able to be used as the offhand attack in a normal attack chain.
|
It would be nice, but imo it still wouldn't be wort taking over other offhands. T o tell the truth, I think that to make it usefull, this skill needs something that would promote using it over and over, that would promote actually "repeating it".
I thought about something like: "For each succesfull attack with this skill in period less than 5 sec, you deal additional +x dmg, with the maximum of(let's say) +60 dmg
So for example at +25 starter dmg and +5 dmg:
1st hit: +25
2nd hit: +30
3rd hit: +35
...
... hit: +55
... hit: +60
... hit +60
and so on. THAT would be imo VERY useful and actually worth taking( and worth combining with Way of The Empty Palm; devoting your build for it).
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zuranthium
Iron Palm - Reduce to 5 energy.
Why? - Because 10 energy is too much for something that's conditional and does barely any damage.
|
20 sec recharge is also imo too much for the reasons stated above.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zuranthium
Mantis Touch - Should be able to follow any melee dagger attack or melee assassin skill.
Why? - Because it's too conditional right now to merit use over Caltrops.
|
And has a bit too long recharge(Caltrops too).
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zuranthium
Mark of Insecurity - Decrease casting time to 1/4 second.
Why? - Not really worth taking over other Elite abilities if it’s not quick.
|
It won't be worth taking even if it is quick. Give it 1/4 cast time(like you suggested) and -20 AL, so it's effect will actually be USEFUL.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zurathium
Scorpion Wire - Reduce to a 20 second recharge.
Why? - 30 seconds is too long for this conditional effect.
|
20 is also too long, because right now there are a lot better alternatives when you want anti-kite hex(Siphon Speed). 10 sec recharge and activation when foe moves farther than 3/4 of aggro bubble.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zuranthium
Way of the Empty Palm - Decrease to a 15 second recharge.
Why? - Because it's already of limited usage and for the builds you'd want to use it with the spell need to be kept up more consistently.
|
Reducing a recharge won't solve the problem that the skill is rather useless right now. However if it was made to work on ALL Assassin skills, it would serve at least one thing: a great E-managment for DA sins(this skill+Deadly Paradox and you can spam Half-ranged skills without worrying about energy). Right now DA sins aren't worth taking from simple reasons: they can't literally spam their skills because they ran out of energy faster than SF eles. This change to this Elite might change it.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zuranthium
Beguiling Haze - Reduce to 10 energy. All other current updates are perfect.
Why? - The dazed duration is really short, this doesn’t need to be at 15 energy.
|
Short daze duration and 0.75 aftercast make this skill a bit imo sucky, and shadowstep doesn't help it much. Now it's hell hard to kill a caster with it(not mentioning that killing a monk with it in it's current state is rather imposibble). Recharge also down to 15 sec.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zuranthium
Blinding Powder - Should be able to follow any melee dagger attack or melee Assassin skill. Also change this to a touch skill.
Why? - Well first of all it makes no sense why this isn't a touch skill (pretty damn hard to throw powder and make it go very far) and secondly it needs to be reliable. Being required to make a successful offhand attack seriously hampers its usefulness currently, especially since it is pretty much THE only Assassin ability that makes Unseen Fury worth using.
|
I would be very grateful if they just made it a regular touch skill without any requirment.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zuranthium
Mirrored Stance - Reduce to a 2 second recharge.
Why? - Because at the very least this should be an extremely spammable cover hex...the effect it has is SO conditional.
|
Change it to:"When target foe enters stance, you enter the same stance and that stance on target foe ends"(something like stance stealer).
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zuranthium
Mark of Instability - Decrease energy cost to 5.
Why? - Because there are better ways to spend your 10 energy if it remains as such.
|
Recharge must also go down to 10 if it wants to see any use.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zuranthium
Wastrel’s Collapse - Cause it to simply do nothing instead of ending prematurely if the opponent uses a skill.
Why? - Because now the spell can be used to reliably open attack windows for the “Black Strike” skills.
|
Rather than making it more useless, add:"If target foe uses a skill, Wastrel's Collapse ends and that skill takes additional 15 sec to recharge." This skill needs to quickly put enemy into dilenma... not to use anything and get KD, or to use something, prevent KD but increase it's recharge by 15 sec.
The changes I didn't mention are imo ok.
I hope that the length of my post satisfies you
- djbartek
Last edited by djbartek; Feb 07, 2007 at 08:33 PM // 20:33..
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 08, 2007, 02:15 AM // 02:15
|
#12
|
|
Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: STALKER!
Guild: The Creed (BOSS)
Profession: Rt/Mo
|
i dissagree with everything you have for changes on the assassin skills. i read it all, and some is utter bullcrap. sorry, but assassins are over-used anyway. just the numbers of assassins in RA, and AB is enormous. there's even a TA build for ganking assassins now. if anything, they should be nerfed.
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 08, 2007, 04:36 AM // 04:36
|
#13
|
|
Jungle Guide
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Guild: Black Rose Gaming [BR]
|
I didn't see the word "GvG" anywhere in your post. Therefore, I can't take you very seriously. Even if you ARE really good at sex, as your girlfriend informed me.
~Z
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 08, 2007, 06:44 AM // 06:44
|
#14
|
|
Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Jan 2006
Guild: [TEW]
Profession: N/
|
IAS = increased attack speed.
Sins are all over ha right now. People run sin spike or rit spike or randomway. Ran a six sin randomway that won a few rounds.
In gvg, I've seen em, but not too often.
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 08, 2007, 06:47 AM // 06:47
|
#15
|
|
Jungle Guide
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Guild: Black Rose Gaming [BR]
|
Djbartek, on the other hand, is a good thinker!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by djbartek
The problem here is imo not en cost, recharge or other things like that, but the effect the skill gives. Now when Assault Enchantments got 2 sec recharge, it literally PULVERIZES Dark Apostacy. This skill, as long as you can keep dual attack mark on enemy(which isn't a problem), can easily remove all enchantments from foe FROM RANGE as many times as your energy pool, 2 sec recharge and presence of dual attack mark enables you. It's also a skill, so elites like Spellbreaker or Obsidian Flesh aren't a problem either.
Not mentioning Shattering Assault, which is also a lot better than Dark Apostacy now(although it's currently imo bugged, but when they fix it, it will also be a very good enchant removal).
Dark Apostacy imho needs a complete rework, but I don't have any idea now what into.
|
With the new change to Critical Strike, I think Dark Apostasy has some potential. When it's active, Critical Strike acts just like Shattering Assault without the "unblockable" component, but for 5 energy instead of 10. That's not a bad deal given that Dark Apostasy will additionally remove an enchantment with 1/4 of all your other attacks (without the bonus of Critical Eye).
The problem here is that Dark Apostasy itself currently costs 10 energy every 15 seconds to remain active, as well as 2.75 seconds of your time, AND is removable. Very, very blah in comparison to what you can do with Assault Enchantments and Shattering Assault. Given the synergy I pointed out with Critical Strike, would you agree that this skill could be Elite-worth with the changes I suggested?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by djbartek
The problem I see with this skill is that actually for it to be really useful and worth its skill slot, you need to take significiant amount of Half-ranged spells(skills). And doing so is profitable only in Deadly Arts builds, where Deadly Paradox is a lot better choice for boosting your skills recharge(you don't use attack skills anyway in DA builds and it's harder to remove it).
|
I agree that Deadly Paradox is going to be better for a pure "Deadly Arts" build, however, I think Deadly Haste could be useful if SIPHON STRENGTH was made into a half-range spell (why isn't it already, wth?) and improved. With Deadly Haste, an Assassin could constantly keep Siphon Strength and Siphon Speed on multiple targets and still be able to use attack skills. Would work great for a hex build.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by djbartek
This skill imo just perpetually sucks and is flawed.It has no synergy with present Assassin skills at all. Giving this IAS or some bonus dmg(let's say... one point per rank in CS, so +13 with 13 CS) would make it more appealing, but I don't think I would use it even with one of those
|
It has no synergy with Assassin skills, but I do think Locusts Fury with the changes I mentioned could be excellent when combined with "FEAR ME" + "FLURRY" and/or "BRUTAL WEAPON" or "STRENGTH OF HONOR".
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by djbartek
This skill good offhand that doesn't require lead... and only that, nothing more.
TBH, right now there are just better Elites worth taking over Palm Strike, elites that can do something more than just dmg dealing. I'm not saying it's a bad Elite, but if I was given a choice between Palm Strke and Moebius Strike(both serve somewhat the same role) I would always take Moebius Strike(it's simply better).
BUT if this skill was given Shadowstep effect, like the one Beguiling Haze got, it would imo be definately better and it would become an elite which is worth being considered for taking.
|
I don't think a teleport fits the flavor of this skill but an offhand attack + teleport at the exact same time would definitely make Palm Strike Elite-worthy, without any changes to the energy or recharge.
To me, the draw for this skill is that it immediately opens up a dual attack no matter what. Doesn't matter if they are blocking/evading or if you are blinded or hexed with something like Spirit of Failure...this thing goes right through it all. With the changes I mentioned, plus an improvement to Unseen Fury, it has potential without any further kind of addition to the actual effect.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by djbartek
I will put this straight: give this elite 1...10 health lost per second and additional 1...10 when target is bleeding or poisoned, and it will be worth it's Elite status.
The other alternative I came up is to buff it's degen a bit and give it -33% benefit from healing.
|
I think the first change you mentioned definitely has promise. What you propose makes the skill more effective for smaller battles, while my change was geared towards a larger group situation where you could spam the hex on lots of opponents and have Rangers on the team be spamming bleeding + poison. Either way, it's clearly a CRAP Elite right now.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by djbartek
Right now Critical Eye is more Elite worthy(cannot be removed, gives you additional energy per critical, lasts longer). The only imo way of making it a worthy Elite is to give it +25% IAS. Yes, it might be a bit brutal, but if even AN hadn't hestitated when they released Nightfall with RaO in its obviously overpowered form...
|
I like the +25% IAS idea. Keep the current stats (other than the "while enchanted" conditionality), add the IAS, and it could be a useful Elite.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by djbartek
Giving it 5 en is imo not enough to make this skill appealing, taking into account that you also reduced Temple Strike cost to 10 en. Imo: apart from reducing it to 5 en, make the Daze part unconditional, and give it conditional(enchanted) ~+30 dmg. Temple Strike would still have its advantages(buries daze with blind, interrupts spells, its effect is unconditional), but GSS would become an alternative worth considering.
|
Turn that around the other way - unconditional damage bonus and conditional dazed - and I think we've got it!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by djbartek
It would be nice, but imo it still wouldn't be wort taking over other offhands. T o tell the truth, I think that to make it usefull, this skill needs something that would promote using it over and over, that would promote actually "repeating it".
I thought about something like: "For each succesfull attack with this skill in period less than 5 sec, you deal additional +x dmg, with the maximum of(let's say) +60 dmg
So for example at +25 starter dmg and +5 dmg:
1st hit: +25
2nd hit: +30
3rd hit: +35
...
... hit: +55
... hit: +60
... hit +60
and so on. THAT would be imo VERY useful and actually worth taking( and worth combining with Way of The Empty Palm; devoting your build for it).
|
I like this idea for Repeating Strike! I'd cap it after 3 attacks, though. Otherwise I think it might be too powerful when combined with an IAS.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by djbartek
It won't be worth taking even if it is quick. Give it 1/4 cast time(like you suggested) and -20 AL, so it's effect will actually be USEFUL.
|
-20 AL would probably be too much but I was thinking that Mark of Insecurity needed a little something extra in addition to a faster cast time to make it Elite-worthy. How about -10 AL?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by djbartek
20 is also too long, because right now there are a lot better alternatives when you want anti-kite hex(Siphon Speed). 10 sec recharge and activation when foe moves farther than 3/4 of aggro bubble.
|
When combined with Deadly Haste (were it made useful), I think a 10 second recharge on this skill could be overpowered. You'd be potentially knocking your target down like every 6 or 7 seconds. LOL! Maybe a 15 second recharge, though?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by djbartek
Reducing a recharge won't solve the problem that the skill is rather useless right now. However if it was made to work on ALL Assassin skills, it would serve at least one thing: a great E-managment for DA sins(this skill+Deadly Paradox and you can spam Half-ranged skills without worrying about energy). Right now DA sins aren't worth taking from simple reasons: they can't literally spam their skills because they ran out of energy faster than SF eles. This change to this Elite might change it.
|
Free cost for ALL Assassin skills across the board would worry me VERY, VERY much. In my experience with Way of the Empty Palm, it was simply never active enough. An A/N with Spinal Shivers is pretty good but the problem I found was that Way of the Empty Palm simply wasn't active all the time and without it being active, the build faltered.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by djbartek
Short daze duration and 0.75 aftercast make this skill a bit imo sucky, and shadowstep doesn't help it much. Now it's hell hard to kill a caster with it(not mentioning that killing a monk with it in it's current state is rather imposibble). Recharge also down to 15 sec.
|
I actually really wanted to state that the recharge should be 15 seconds as well, after the duration nerf. Agreed.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by djbartek
I would be very grateful if they just made it a regular touch skill without any requirment.
|
The problem with making Blinding Powder a regular touch skill with no requirement is that it would become TOO good for other classes. There needs something that limits it from any Mesmer or Monk just throwing it on their bar with a few points into Shadow Arts.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by djbartek
Change it to:"When target foe enters stance, you enter the same stance and that stance on target foe ends"(something like stance stealer).
|
I think that would maybe be TOO good and also not really fit with the flavor of the skill... "Mirrored stance". However, you've totally opened my eyes to something I can't believe I didn't think of...casting the spell on somebody already in a stance should let the Assassin immediately go into that stance as well!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by djbartek
Recharge must also go down to 10 if it wants to see any use.
|
Hmm, don't you think that might be TOO good though? A knockdown every 10 seconds for 5 energy and no drawbacks? It would be SHOCK without the exhaustion. I'd say either 10 energy and a 10 second recharge or 5 energy and a 20 second recharge.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by djbartek
Rather than making it more useless, add:"If target foe uses a skill, Wastrel's Collapse ends and that skill takes additional 15 sec to recharge." This skill needs to quickly put enemy into dilenma... not to use anything and get KD, or to use something, prevent KD but increase it's recharge by 15 sec.
|
Okay, I could definitely get on board with that.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by djbartek
I hope that the length of my post satisfies you |
Your length is very...*ahem*....pleasing.
---------------
I've updated the original post with a few of these suggestions!
~Z
Last edited by Zuranthium; Feb 08, 2007 at 07:23 AM // 07:23..
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 08, 2007, 07:24 AM // 07:24
|
#16
|
|
Desert Nomad
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Heightened state of mind.
Profession: P/W
|
I don't agree with turning a vast sum of Assassin enchantments into skills. Perhaps some of them, but not all. Some of them could afford to be stances as well.
None of the off-hand attacks that don't require a lead attack are simply lead free, except the elite Palm Strike, they all require something else as a trigger instead of a lead attack, so pretending that it is "straight to off-hand" or "free of lead" is a misconception, the they all require something else as a lead instead of a lead attack, a hex, an enchantment, or knockdown, all of them have some sort of trigger instead of lead.
Speaking of which, knockdown is the hardest lead to produce, it can be protected against, and there are few effective knockdowns in the Assassin line, which is why I think Falling Spider should do more damage than Black Spider.
And Pheonix Strike always requires an enchantment, often costing Assassin 5 or 10 energy as he aproaches battle, it was 5 to begin with, and it should still be 5, why they got the nerve to nerf it when Assassin was worst is difficult for me to accept.
Palm Strike is rather powerful, it isn't an attack, it is a touch skill, requiring no lead, and cannot miss due to blinding, besides doing armor ignoring damage. The only improvement I could accept on this is a lower recast or 5 energy cost, it is rather useful for a quick combo start.
Seeping wound seems rather weak, but it can be applied to foes liberally. As an Elite Hex, it could provide some more impact, perhaps a significant degeneration bonus if the foe is under those conditions, or an additional weakness added if the foe suffers from those conditions. For an Elite Hex, it is rather sappy to do only 3 health degeneration if you also fulfill a condition, honestly, compared to something like conjure phantasm it is a joke. I would consider 25% less armor vs your, or all attacks wile they are bleeding or poisoned, along with a 15 second recharge.
Dark Apostasy is pretty dumb, for an elite, with such ridiculous cost, it rates right at pathetic. It could afford to be a skill so it cannot be stripped, especially if it is going to cost 5 energy for every stripped enchantment. Honestly, if it wasn't for up to 4 energy return on each critical, the cost would be ridiculous, but since the combination of critical eye, high critical strikes and enchantment removal on critical can combine well, the easy thing to do is make it less vulnerable, I mean we have Grenth to compete with.
Locust Fury isn't all bad, it isn't really deadly by itself, but with combinations of Mark of Pain, Barbs, Strength of Honor, or Conjure spells, it can offer a significant increase in damage. I would say it is only worth 5 energy though, because banking on Assassin Damage Over Time is like sail power on a car, it belongs on boats.
Foxes promise, either 5 energy or skill form.
Way of the Assassin is rather poor, the idea that you will use Critical Eye and Way of the Assassin for outragious criticals discounts the simple fact that you used 2 skills to provide additional critical, and the elite has a conditional effect and it's own vulnerability as well as not rewarding additional energy. If you have all your enchantments stripped or face a stance breaker this skill gets shut down, so basicly a foe can be equiped with either of your typical buff strippers and you lose your ability. They could just make this a skill that way the only trouble would be requiring an enchantment, or they could leave it a stance and remove the requirement for enchantment, but I would perfer they add an additional effect like higher critical damage on criticals and leave the difficulties in, than it would make a big difference that you are not just performing almost 100% criticals (with all critical abilities accounted for), but those critical hits would mean something more.
And shadowsteps, I always get back to this. 15 seconds on elite shadowsteps, maybe more on Beguiling since it offers dazed, and 20-25 seconds max on all other shadowsteps. As a new mechanic they could remove simply one or two strokes of adrenaline when you use a shadowstep to reduce the speed of adrenaline spikes with shadowstep, but IMO, that is simply a form of effective class combination, not a broken trait. The durations of Dark and Shadow Prison can stay the same, and the cost should remain to (no way your paying the same for shadow as dark), with Dark Prison being useful enough to not use an elite for a decent shadowstep, Shadow Prison needs to retain faster recharge, lower cost and longer hex duration to be worthy.
Heart of Shadows needs to be 7 seconds. A preventive heal on yourself isn't worth much, it isn't like Paragons spamming Restoration Prevetion on a team, your casting a preventive heal on only one person, and only yourself, not allies. Most importantly, Assassin doesn't have room in his build for a part time heal/protection spell. With a minimum of 3 offensive skills, often 5 (hexes and attacks together), and shadow refuge and a rez, you don't get the option of taking a weak health supplimental skill. It either needs to be regularly effective, or it gets passed for Return. At 5 to 7 seconds it can be used to frequently dodge slow projectiles and counteract a little damage regularly, unless it is regularly, it isn't even a function.
Deaths Charge, 20 second recharge, at max. Deaths Retreat, 15 second recharge.
Feigned Netrality needs to be a 15 second recharge, a heal that only works when your not attacking doesn't need to be a part time heal, by using it your basicly saying you don't bring a retreat shadowstep, it should have at least the slight possibility to replace shadow refuge.
Shadow Walk needs a recast at 20 max, keep the 30 second duration.
Last edited by BahamutKaiser; Feb 08, 2007 at 07:43 AM // 07:43..
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 08, 2007, 05:14 PM // 17:14
|
#17
|
|
Jungle Guide
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Guild: Black Rose Gaming [BR]
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser
I don't agree with turning a vast sum of Assassin enchantments into skills. Perhaps some of them, but not all.
|
It's not a "vast sum", it's just the Critical Strikes enchantments (plus Shadow Form...which needs a change as it's currently either near-useless or simply abusable) - a total of 7 skills. I'm confused because you yourself went on to agree in your post that Dark Apostasy, Fox's Promise, etc. should be skills like Critical Eye...?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser
Feigned Netrality needs to be a 15 second recharge, a heal that only works when your not attacking doesn't need to be a part time heal, by using it your basicly saying you don't bring a retreat shadowstep, it should have at least the slight possibility to replace shadow refuge.
|
The skill was nerfed because it could be kept up indefinitely with Deadly Paradox with only 9 in Shadow Arts.
Although, I have been thinking lately, it's really Deadly Paradox that is overpowered. A non-elite that gives you half casting time and half recharge for all your non-attack skills for 5 energy??? Feigned Neutrality should be unnerfed and Deadly Paradox should be changed so that it only affects non-Enchantment Skills. This line of thinking also lead me to realize what needed to be changed about Shadow Form. Woot, a breakthrough!
-----------
I've updated the original post with those changes for Deadly Paradox, Feigned Neutrality, and Shadow Form.
~Z
Last edited by Zuranthium; Feb 08, 2007 at 05:25 PM // 17:25..
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 08, 2007, 07:52 PM // 19:52
|
#18
|
|
Ascalonian Squire
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zuranthium
With the new change to Critical Strike, I think Dark Apostasy has some potential. When it's active, Critical Strike acts just like Shattering Assault without the "unblockable" component, but for 5 energy instead of 10. That's not a bad deal given that Dark Apostasy will additionally remove an enchantment with 1/4 of all your other attacks (without the bonus of Critical Eye).
The problem here is that Dark Apostasy itself currently costs 10 energy every 15 seconds to remain active, as well as 2.75 seconds of your time, AND is removable. Very, very blah in comparison to what you can do with Assault Enchantments and Shattering Assault. Given the synergy I pointed out with Critical Strike, would you agree that this skill could be Elite-worth with the changes I suggested?
|
Yes, but I just don't see any point in buffing a skill which, like I said, is imo totally inferior to Assault Enchantments. The only way I can see this skill being an Elite worthy enchant removal(which can compete with Assault) is giving it AoE (Aoe enchant removal) or making it work a bit like Xinrae's Weapon(an outrageous idea that came to my mind; make it also DISABLE removed enchantments for enemy team for x seconds ).
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zuranthium
-20 AL would probably be too much but I was thinking that Mark of Insecurity needed a little something extra in addition to a faster cast time to make it Elite-worthy. How about -10 AL?
|
-10 AL? Kinda low... But I think balanced when we take into account its cost, recharge, duration and the other things it does(crappy effects imo, but they also somewhat balance it).
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zuranthium
Hmm, don't you think that might be TOO good though? A knockdown every 10 seconds for 5 energy and no drawbacks? It would be SHOCK without the exhaustion. I'd say either 10 energy and a 10 second recharge or 5 energy and a 20 second recharge.
|
I would rather it be 10en and 10 recharge(Iron Palm and MoInstability) than 5 en and 20 recharge. The problem is that with 20 sec recharge, you can't really fit them into your build(like Iron Palm--->Falling Spider, or MoI-->dual--> Falling...)without delying your combo frequency to 20 sec. That's the problem.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser
Palm Strike is rather powerful, it isn't an attack, it is a touch skill, requiring no lead, and cannot miss due to blinding, besides doing armor ignoring damage. The only improvement I could accept on this is a lower recast or 5 energy cost, it is rather useful for a quick combo start.
|
Useful only when you plan to take only short combo like Palm Strike--->9tail strike--->Impale. If you want to make something longer with this skill, you must usually take something like hex or enchant, offhand and dual OR take lead--->offhand--->dual. Which eats up 5 your slots. And we all know that there is far better combo with other elite that takes 5 slots, don't we?
The only way I can see this Elite being useful and worth taking over other BETTER Elites, is making it almost spammable(6 or even 4 seconds); and that would be obviously overpowered.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zuranthium
Shadow Form - Remove the "you lose X amount of health when this skill ends" component, change it to a skill with a 10 second recharge that also changes the form of your character, set the duration at 10 + Attribute Rank, and cause the skill to become disabled for 45 seconds when used. Also make it so that traps are not sprung by the character when in this form.
Why - The skill in its current form is either useless or abusable with things such as Deadly Paradox and Arcane Mimicry + Echo. With this change it would temporarily give the Assassin near-invulnerability without the drawback of massive health loss when it ends and not be abusable by other skills in any way. Worthy of being an Elite but not problem causing.
|
Quoted only to underline your genius GREAT JOB Couldn't make it better myself.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zuranthium
Deadly Paradox - Cause it to affect only non-Enchantment skills.
Why? - Because it's simply abusive with Feigned Neutrality...a skill that was fine by itself pre-nerf but becomes too powerful when used with this skill.
|
It can hamper the skill greatly, considering that AN has... ahem "fixed a bug" that caused it to work with stances.
I can bear with it though.
- djbartek
Last edited by djbartek; Feb 08, 2007 at 07:54 PM // 19:54..
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 08, 2007, 10:40 PM // 22:40
|
#19
|
|
Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Sep 2006
Guild: Xen of Onslaught
Profession: E/Me
|
I can't believe I actually read this filth called a thread.
Hey, I'm bored of hitting stances on my warrior. Let's have them auto-activate whenever they recharge! In fact, lets have dismember auto cast when you have adrenaline too! It's boring to cast skills! Hey, lets give doylak signet +100 armor as well, since you get slower move speed!
While we're at it, using the searing flames+glowing gaze combo is boring. Let's have searing flames and glowing gaze autocast on the centermost enemy in a group! You shouldn't have to choose a target to attack, that's just annoying!
Oh, and let's change light of deliverance to autocast too... that 1 second casting time is SOOOO ANNOYING OMG.
And lets add a skill to every class that auto activates, gives +1000 armor, gives you 95% block and evade, and +500 holy damage! After all, who wants to play the game when they can have the computer do it for them?
In conclusion, please don't make useless suggestions to unbalance the game simply because you're bored of actually using skills, and because you want your favourite class to destroy everything. It seems that Guild Wars may be a tad above your capacity, you should perhaps try playing Go Fish and work your way up from there.
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 08, 2007, 11:01 PM // 23:01
|
#20
|
|
Jungle Guide
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Guild: Black Rose Gaming [BR]
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by djbartek
Yes, but I just don't see any point in buffing a skill which, like I said, is imo totally inferior to Assault Enchantments. The only way I can see this skill being an Elite worthy enchant removal(which can compete with Assault) is giving it AoE (Aoe enchant removal) or making it work a bit like Xinrae's Weapon(an outrageous idea that came to my mind; make it also DISABLE removed enchantments for enemy team for x seconds ). |
I think there could be room for both. Assault Enchantments is a different threat because after performing a Dual Attack, one single target is marked for that instant enchantment stripping. Dark Apostasy allows the Assassin to remove enchantments from the target at the same time he's spiking...Malicious Strike + Critical Strike (were Malicious Strike changed), for example, could quickly take 3 enchantments off of a target and allow the group's spike to be effective.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by djbartek
I would rather it be 10en and 10 recharge(Iron Palm and MoInstability) than 5 en and 20 recharge. The problem is that with 20 sec recharge, you can't really fit them into your build(like Iron Palm--->Falling Spider, or MoI-->dual--> Falling...)without delying your combo frequency to 20 sec. That's the problem.
|
To me, Mark of Instability is something you'd want to combo with Aura of Displacement. I was actually already doing spikes very similar to the current Shadow Prison build before Shadow Prison even came out...Mark of Instability + AoD + Flurry + Black Lotus Strike + Twisting Fangs + Falling Spider + Horns of the Ox. It took more energy than the current Shadow Prison spike (+5 energy daggers were necessary), it didn't have the snare component, and it wasn't quite as fast and deadly...but I could still solo-spike targets and teleport away. With a cost of 5 energy for Mark of Instability and AoD, that build (well, you'd sub Burst of Agression for Flurry these days) would be more competitive. You'd be sacrificing speed for safety. Perhaps you wouldn't even use Burst of Agression. You could go with Shock instead and make a build oriented towards keeping someone on the floor. Teleport in, knock them down with Twisting Fangs, attack once, knock them down again with Shock, use Falling Spider, then potentially knock them down again with Horns of the Ox. I think Iron Palm could find similar uses as a 5 energy ability.
Quote:
Useful only when you plan to take only short combo like Palm Strike--->9tail strike--->Impale. If you want to make something longer with this skill, you must usually take something like hex or enchant, offhand and dual OR take lead--->offhand--->dual. Which eats up 5 your slots. And we all know that there is far better combo with other elite that takes 5 slots, don't we?
The only way I can see this Elite being useful and worth taking over other BETTER Elites, is making it almost spammable(6 or even 4 seconds); and that would be obviously overpowered.
|
Oh there are definitely better Elites for a long attack chain, but maybe your metagame has a lot of Wards/Aegis and/or blocking stances. Palm Strike + 9 Tail + Impale, as you mentioned, does a good amount of damage for just 3 attacks and makes sure that you DO hit. Palm Strike is also useful for "cutting through the bullshit" when combined with Unseen Fury and Blinding Powder, to let you be constantly hitting through annoying anti-melee. That build could also function as a linebacker of sorts, blinding and dishing out a lot of damage to other melee classes who are chasing your Monks. Of course, it all depends on Palm Strike, Unseen Fury, and Blinding Powder being improved to even see if it's a competitive build.
~Z
|
|
|
|
| Thread Tools |
|
|
| Display Modes |
 Linear Mode
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
All times are GMT. The time now is 07:36 AM // 07:36.
|
jQuery(document).ready(checkAds()); function checkAds(){if (document.getElementById('adsense')!=undefined){document.write("_gaq.push(['_trackEvent', 'Adblock', 'Unblocked', 'false',,true]);");}else{document.write("